Reverse Interview Podcast
Alliance Physical Therapy Partners: Alliance Physical Therapy Partners in Agile Virtual Physical Therapy proudly present Agile&Me, a Physical Therapy Leadership podcast devised to help emerging and experienced therapy leaders learn more about various topics relevant to outpatient therapy services.
Richard Leaver: Welcome back to Agile&Me, a Physical Therapy Leadership Podcast.
Here today I am excited to welcome guest, but also actually the host, Jordan Finger. Jordan is a PT that, works for Alliance Physical Therapy Partners and works in the capacity of a client director currently. So welcome Jordan.
Jordan Finger: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Richard Leaver: Well, thank you so much for actually volunteering to actually be the host today because today’s gonna be a little bit different.
You are gonna be asking me questions, I think, which, you know, is unusual for me. Before we do that, I’d love perhaps you to give the listeners just a little bit of your background and also perhaps how it transpired that I’m gonna be the guest today.
Jordan Finger: Yeah, so I had always been around sports growing up and originally was gonna go down the route of athletic training.
And after speaking with a few trainers in my high school and my college, I kind of decided to go the route of PT, I figured that I would have a little more flexibility to work with other populations other than the athletes and. After getting volunteer hours and more experience, I developed that passion in the orthopedic world.
And the school I went to down at the University of St. Augustine was a very manual therapy-based school, so I learned a lot of cool stuff, and I’m still furthering that education there with the manual therapy skills. And I just continue to love treating all ages really, from young kids to the late adult and geriatric population. Primarily in the orthopedic and definitely have a special place for the athletes, special care for them. And yeah, so that’s kind of my passion and why I kind of started this, and as I’ve stepped into the director role here at Armor Physical Therapy, I just began to get curious as I’ve developed my skills. And as a young clinician, my original focus was to just get as good as I can.
And obviously I have a lot to learn and still a long way to go to become a veteran in this field, but I really started to become curious and the other side of things the business side of things and what happens behind the closed doors. And my boss, Scott Miller, was, you know, great at introducing me to it.
And I just continued to want to know more. It’s not often when you get to meet the CEO of your, you know, company, especially in the PT world at least. So it was a great experience to be able to meet you and the other people of Alliance Physical Therapy at the CORE program that weekend. And so after speaking with you the first time, just a brief, you know, introduction that we had with each other, you know, I just thought I’d ask you and was curious to know what it’s like not only to be a CEO, but also for you to be a physical therapist yourself and being able to know and have experience in both sides of things with, you know, the business side and also the clinician side.
So I thought I’d take the opportunity and get to know more about that.
Richard Leaver: That’s fantastic. Well, let’s crack on, shall we? So what type of questions do you have for me? I’m not sure how much wisdom I can, I have to share, but I’ll try my best.
Jordan Finger: Yeah. So I think I just wanted to maybe start it off with asking you kind of your background and where it all started. I know you mentioned at the core program that you were from England originally, or at least that’s where you began your work.
But kind of, I guess, just know where you’re from and your background as a PT early on in your career, you know, along with your maybe specialties and interests in that way.
Richard Leaver: So tell by the accent that not originally from Birmingham, Alabama, but you know, Birmingham, England. So I, as you correctly said, I trained as a therapist in the UK.
Late eighties, very early nineties. So I have almost 35 years under my belt now. So time really flies. And then I’ve spent my entire career in the outpatient world, but in very different environments. So I was originally Maitland trained. But then I did certifications and then Mackenzie certifications, Syriac certifications, worked with people that worked with David Butler, Brian Mulligan, Jenny McConnell, et cetera, et cetera.
So pretty eclectic background as it pertains to the manual therapy world. And I think I like to think of myself as the [00:05:00] kind of the child of the true leaders or of the founders of many philosophies of manual therapy care. So I was very lucky to not necessarily work directly with those very well-known people, clinicians, but for people that were his, their protege, shall I say?
Yeah. So then I came across the states almost 25 years ago. It was very difficult actually to transfer my qualifications across to the US, so I almost actually gave up therapy as a result of the bureaucracy, the licensure, and the rules placed with regards to comparative analysis of degrees, which I always found quite funny really because whilst I certainly am no better than a US trained therapist, I did find it was perhaps a little bit strange, the fact that my [00:06:00] qualifications didn’t really match up or perceive to be matched up. So I had to go back to school and do chemistry 101 and physics 101 and a humanities credit, and even one state wanted me to do English as a foreign language examination at one point. So, it was a pretty traumatic transition with regards to getting license here in the US and then since being in the US I worked for Magnet status hospital physician-owned practices. And then the last perhaps 10 years of my career worked in what I would call the kind of the standalone outpatient PT clinic world for the likes of Physiotherapy Associates and a TI and more recently Alliance Physical Therapy Partners.
Jordan Finger: Yeah. And so you kind of touched upon it when you had to come over from the UK, the challenges you kind of faced with.
At least the transfer of your license or and your background education. And so I guess just the difference in healthcare is a [00:07:00] topic between, you know, America and these other countries, and the pros and cons of both. And I guess, what challenges did you notice early in your career when you did finally start working again and. I guess the differences between working in the UK and the US.
Richard Leaver: Yes. For therapy, it’s really quite profound. The differences certainly was when I moved across the states 20, 25 years ago. I felt when I came across the states, I was really inhibited or not allowed essentially to be able to treat in a manner that I was used to.
So, for instance, in the UK, direct access has been available since the 1970s, early 1970s. When I left the UK 25 years ago, I was allowed and qualified to do cortisone slow injections. I was worked with an orthopedic surgeon directly. I was involved with ordering imaging. And follow up thereafter, I was able to manipulate, I was able to perform acupuncture.
So many of the things that really has taken 20 years to gravitate and be allowed to be done in many US states now, I was doing it many years before. So to come from that environment to one where, essentially, I was treated, and operating more as a technician was a real shock to my practice and the way that I treated.
Jordan Finger: Yeah, I’m sure that was, that’s interesting because, you know, we learned through my schooling with manual therapy, how it recently just became accepted in the US and all manual therapy type of interventions were primarily what chiropractors should do and so, it’s interesting that over there you were able to do that as, you know, a practicing PT and how it’s viewed so much differently here.
So yeah, I’m sure that was, that was challenging. You kind of cut back on a lot of your skills when you got here.
Richard Leaver: And then not only from the clinical side and from a skill perspective. It was really, you know, the fact that, that there was billing involved to move from a, basically a public healthcare system, to one where essentially it was for all intensive purposes, fee for service. That was, that was learning like another language at the time and it definitely impacted how one treated, and I found that very difficult to comprehend and to adjust to.
Jordan Finger: Yeah, that’s, that’s definitely a challenging, even now as a new graduate, I think that it’s challenging when you’re trying to balance what is called of you with regards to billing and what the expectations are and when you have certain patients who, you know, insurance is just different and, you know, you struggle with wanting to give the equal care, which we [00:10:00] end up doing, but then unfortunately not reimbursed, you know, what we should be for that, you know, skill care we’re giving.
Richard Leaver: You bring up a really, sorry, you bring up a really good point there with regards to, payers have abused their position as it pertains to the fact that they expect clinicians and providers to provide a certain level of care, but they don’t reimburse necessarily the rate that that is sustainable or sufficient to be able to provide that level of care that, that as a clinician, we want to provide. So for instance, if we’re seeing a Medicaid patient with reimbursement, which are levels that are significantly less than what it, what it cost for us to provide an episode or a treatment, then how can we deliver the required service?
And Medicaid isn’t alone. There’s a number of private healthcare payers that that reimburse at significantly less than what it costs to provide the visit. And in the past when the rates were, I’d say reasonable, one could cross-subsidize, but as rates have gone downwards, both relatively and in real terms, that cross-subsidization just isn’t, isn’t possible now.
So you’re definitely ending up with a healthcare landscape where you have different groups with different abilities to treat effectively for each of those groups.
Jordan Finger: Yeah. And I wish there was just a stronger, you know, connection between the understanding of what we do and we’re ultimately trying to save these insurance companies money. I mean, we’re trying to improve, you know, the population’s health and wellbeing and in all aspects. And so, you know, the fact that that’s how it is today with the reimbursements when we’re trying to, you know, makes people’s lives longer and healthier and allow them to be more functional and just enjoy life.
And so when they make it harder on us and put more pressure, it’s kind of, you know, it doesn’t make sense at times. I’ll say that.
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Richard Leaver: Payers look at spend in silos as it pertains to different healthcare functions entities, providers. So the argument that payers have is well spend on conservative, muscular mosquito care or spend on physical therapies going up.
So they have to constrain that spend or that inflation. But what they don’t look at is the fact that the aging, it’s an aging population. So of course it’s going to go up, but also, It’s better for the therapy cost to go up because if that goes up and utilization of therapy goes up, there’s plenty of research isn’t there, that shows that therapy first or therapy intervention actually reduces total MSK cost.
But because it’s looked more in a silo mentality, they don’t necessarily look and the bigger picture. So that’s a frustration.
Jordan Finger: Yeah. And so at the CORE program, you did mention, obviously the reimbursement rates being a challenge. You also mentioned the shortage of clinicians across the country and PTs not being the best advocacy.
So I guess if you could elaborate a little more on those types of challenges, and I guess how you, managed to, you know, still become successful and, and along those obstacles.
Richard Leaver: Yes. So let’s break that down into the three. So let’s, let’s start with the first one. So if you can just remind me for each one and then we’ll, we’ll expand.
Jordan Finger: Yep. And so the first one you mentioned was a shortage of clinicians.
Richard Leaver: Yes. So this is, depending on who you read, there are a number of reports out there that provide a differing opinion as it pertains to the level of the deficit of therapists. But when you look specifically at outpatient and look at perhaps the larger [00:15:00] organizations, all you have to do is look at the number of positions available and the likes of Indeed, et cetera, and you know that there is a shortage, and that shortage is a structural shortage.
I think what ultimately has happened is the cost of training and the level of salary associated with being a therapist. That has got to a point where there probably isn’t a strong argument, or economic argument for a return on its original investment. So when you look at the cost of private public schools, it’s just a little over a hundred thousand on average to train as a therapist.
That’s just the, the fees for the education. Private school, you’re probably looking at about an average of $150,000. Based off the salaries, not only as a new graduate, but actually as a experienced therapist, it’s difficult to really justify the expense and other healthcare professions and, you know, other non-healthcare professions actually see more attractive at that point when you’re talking about a, a pure financial return on investment.
So until there’s some changes, fundamental changes, then I think there’s going to be a continued struggle to be able to attract and retain sufficient clinicians for an aging population with increasing demand overall.
Jordan Finger: Yeah, and interestingly enough, before we move to the other points, I think it was maybe two years ago, Physical Therapists were actually rated one of the most happy, working individuals, I guess. And so, you know, amongst the rising cost of just living in general, no matter where you are, and our salary is not necessarily, you know, matching the amount we had to put in for the schooling, we still, you know, Physical Therapists are still enjoying what, what we’re doing. It’s important.
Richard Leaver: That’s a really good point. No, I love being a therapist. You know, I think it’s one of those few jobs where you’re both mentally and physically challenged and you are able to interact for an extended period of time with your patients and you are able to see most of the time, significant improvements in pain reduction and increased function by addressing, you know, mechanical dysfunction and derangement.
The, it’s so intrinsically rewarding as a profession. So, you know, when I’m with a patient, I absolutely love it, but we still gotta pay the bills. We’ve still gotta pay the electricity bill, the heating bill. And also, you know, if you’re gonna spend six years in education, then you’ve got to get a return on that investment. And that’s really the struggle I think.
Jordan Finger: Yeah, and so we, we spoke a little bit about it, so elaborate as much as you’d like. But the second challenge was, of course, the decrease in reimbursements across the board.
Richard Leaver: Yes. I think again, depending on who you read, what you read. I think I read the other day that when you look at, for instance, Medicare reimbursement, there’s gonna be a relative decline of about 30% in the last 10 years.
You know, there are many commercial payers that haven’t raised rates for five plus years, and we all know what’s happened with inflation really in the last few years. So. What’s happening is costs are going up. There is definitely wage inflation along with increasing costs for consumables and leases, et cetera.
And you know, there hasn’t been a comparable increase in reimbursement rates and ultimately you have to make sufficient money to be able to pay the bills and have a little leftover to be able to reinvest and grow and nobody’s getting rich in therapy. Even if you increase the reimbursement rates, you know, relatively significantly, still nobody is getting rich and you know, I, we all understand and appreciate that clinicians should earn more.
Okay. Nobody’s arguing with that fact. It’s just how do we pay for that? You know, I would love to have increased reimbursements to be able to pay what I believe clinicians do deserve based off their education, experience, and contribution towards society. Unfortunately, that’s probably a little idealistic because there’s many, many jobs in the US and abroad that don’t necessarily reimburse based off contribution to society. But yeah it’s an issue, particularly when you look at it in the context of record profits of commercial payers as well. I think that’s what upsets me the most [00:20:00] is every year as a consumer of private healthcare, our premiums go up and they go up on, in general, above inflation, whereas that increase is not being provided, in fact, the increase in, in large part, none of it is being provided with increased reimbursement rates for providers per se. So that’s, that’s probably what upsets me the most.
Jordan Finger: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, you touched upon the other, you know, much as I love physical therapy, you know, there’s a lot of other professions who also aren’t being reimbursed for their contribution.
I actually wrote a paper on that in college at my sociology class. Regarding, you know, our teachers and, and fire departments, police departments, and, you know, compared to athletes, as much as I love ’em and love sports, it’s ridiculous the amount of money they make. Yes, they bring entertainment, which does a lot for mental health and other contributions, and, and I get it.
They work hard and they deserve that pay. But at the end of the day when their house is burning, you know, it’s the fire department going, it’s the police department and they need injuries, or have injuries and need recovery. They’re coming to us. And so it’s those things that are just aren’t valued and, you know, you wonder, is it just America? Or you know, what, what is this that’s driving such a large gap?
Richard Leaver: Yeah, you bring, again, you bring up a great point. You know, it’s not just America. You know, in England, healthcare workers, you know, relatively poorly paid, in fact a lot worse than they, even in the US. Nobody goes into healthcare or, or services with the idea that they’re going to make significant dollars.
You know the one in the US I think of is social workers, for instance. You know, the, the amount of stress and the workload they have and what they have to contend with. You know, you couldn’t pay them enough essentially. But the other point, which is drifting in towards the advocacy as well, is when you.
When you call out a plumber or an electrician, you know that you are going to be charged just to get them to come to your door, probably a hundred, $200. That’s before they even start doing any work. And as therapists, outpatient therapists, our services are significantly less than that cost.
That’s not to say we’re any better than plumbers, but I can’t, based off our education experience, I don’t think we’re necessarily less than plumbers or electricians. So, you know, why are people prepared to pay those professions more money and not us? And I think a lot of the reason is the fact that we haven’t demonstrated or educated people on our value, and that’s shame on us at that point.
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Jordan Finger: You know, every day when I’m having new evaluations and the amount of patients who genuinely don’t know what physical therapy is and what’s the point of it, ‘I have no pain’, it’s as much as it is about symptom reduction and pain reduction, there’s so much more that we offer to their overall health and their life. And I do agree with you. I think that we get so focused and narrow-minded on our schooling and you know, we have to just go to work and fix our patients.
And there’s so much more in the community that we could be doing to let people know that we’re here to help with. And it’s not just go to the doctor, you know, go to the doctor, get some money. I mean, get medication. Excuse me. I mean, that’s important when, when it’s, it’s necessary, but.
We could be helping with so many, you know, different ways and, and things. And that’s one thing I have been trying to do. And, you know, as a younger generation trying to use social media to the benefit, you know, just with friends and people calling me about just anything that’s bothering them physically and, you know, I tell them, Hey, if you have any family friends that have questions, you know, spread the word. And it’s just to let them know that, you know, we can help with so many things. It doesn’t have to just be a surgery and now they need help or, you know, anything along those lines. So it is a challenge and a struggle, and I think hopefully the younger generations can put the social media as, as much as it’s an influence.
Now put that to use and. Try to really spread the, the word.
Richard Leaver: I’ll, I’ll leave that to you. Absolutely. Yeah.
Jordan Finger: And so I guess along with that, you’ve kind of [00:25:00] touched upon it, but, you know, Alliance Therapy Partners, it’s across the country and it’s a really widespread company and, and, and really family at this point.
I mean, I met so many people at that CORE program from all over the country and. It was wonderful and a great experience. And I guess I, I just ask you, with those challenges you’ve mentioned, both economically and non, how are you still able to find the success and I guess your mindset and any bit of advice you have regarding that?
Richard Leaver: That’s a really good question. I think if you look at the micro level, you can get a little depressed at times, but I think we have to step back, you know, and look at it in a number of ways. The first off is, you know, is the kind of the 90 10 rule. Life is 10% what happens during 90% how you respond. Okay.
And I think as an organization we have to be forward looking, we have to be open to change. We have to be just, just generally open with our approach and outlook and culture. And I think, you know, if you are not, then when you get into the difficulties. Like, kind of who moved my cheese, wasn’t it? So I think first and foremost, it’s how you manage these various challenges.
If you have a victim mentality, then as an organization you’re not going to be able to be successful. And you know, these challenges aren’t new. They might be different, they may be a little bit more severe, but there’s always challenges in life in healthcare. And over the last 20 years, whilst I worked in the States as a clinician, then, you know, it’s every year there’s something.
So I think. In part, you know, it’s, how you respond. Secondly, success is really based off the developing and maintaining an organization that has strong culture. It’s definitely true when people say culture be each strategy, it’s not to say you don’t have to have a strategy. It’s not to say you don’t have to operate in an optimized manner.
It’s not to say you don’t have to have, you know, policies and processes, et cetera, et cetera. You have to have all of that. But all of that really, as a result of a foundation of a strong culture. I believe any organization can be successful if it has that culture and able to not only build it, but maintain it.
And what you’ll see, what you’ve seen in physical therapy and in many, many other businesses is when that culture is lost. Then that’s when problems occur. You know, for instance, Starbucks is a great example of that, where I think it was Howard Schultz was the CEO. He stepped down. There was different leadership and he ended up actually coming back into Starbucks.
And there’s plenty of examples, but I think that’s fundamentally the, how one achieves success, both in the short and long term.
Jordan Finger: Yeah. And you know, with the culture being such a important factor, you know, I won’t name any names, but I’ve done travel therapy and I’ve, you know, worked at some companies that are widespread and not just a single clinic.
And the turnover rates are not good, you know, and, and there was no culture. The culture was, was pushing numbers and, you know, we didn’t go into business, we went into healthcare, and so. It was a challenge, especially as a new grad, you know, first job out of school and schedules just changing every second, every minute of the day.
It just wasn’t a fun environment to be in. Coworkers were great, but what was expected of us just really influenced a lot. And when I did try to go to my manager and ask him questions and things, it’s, he was a great, great guy, but all he knew was what corporate and, and you know, what he had to do.
And so what he’s pushing out and and explaining it didn’t make any sense. And, you know, he’s talking about patient care and I just, I couldn’t wrap my head around it. It didn’t make sense how you’re talking about patient care, but this is the way our schedule looks like and this is how that is ran.
And so, you know, there, there really wasn’t any culture or feeling of family within those types of companies, I guess to say. And so it is, it is a huge factor, I think for sure, to keep employees happy and successful.
Richard Leaver: It’s extremely difficult to build a culture that is geographically [00:30:00] dispersed and, and you know, outpatient therapy is a disconnected business.
You know, you don’t, when you have the patients in front of you on a day-to-day basis, it’s very difficult to comprehend and understand that you’re part of something much bigger, you know, a national entity perhaps, or organization. So I’m not saying it’s easy. You know, it’s very easy to, to say other companies don’t necessarily do it well, but, but it is difficult.
I think ultimately the culture is, you know. We went to school and we want to help patients, and it’s connecting to purpose and connecting to the why. And then if everyone is engaged and understands the why, the processes, the policies are more palatable, more easy to understand or accept. So, you know.
It’s all well in good saying people, well, you need to, you know, bill X. Well, okay, let’s break that down. Why are we doing that? To optimize clinical care or function or outcomes. And thankfully, the optimum way of caring for somebody thankfully does align with being able to pay the bills. Yeah. So, you know, if there wasn’t that connection, then I think, you know, the things would really fall apart. But, but there still is that match, thankfully.
Jordan Finger: Yeah. And so, you know, culture’s big as you said, and that’s, that’s a big focus for you within all of Alliance. And another thing, you mentioned one of your goals, you said it isn’t about being the biggest, but about being the most sustainable and doing what’s right.
And I guess if you can just elaborate on that more. I mean, I think that’s a great statement in itself and I. Says a lot as a CEO. You know, a lot of people think, oh, CEO and PTs, who don’t know their corporate members or people higher ups, they think, oh, you know, they’re just all greedy, they all, it’s all about money, you know, and being able to experience and meet you guys. I can tell you it’s not all about that. So, yeah, if you can just elaborate on that. ’cause I think that’s just wonderful, you know?
Richard Leaver: Yeah. There’s, there’s quite a few points here. You know, ultimately we’re in the relationship business. Okay. In fact, it’s OT, PT, speech could be any number of things. It could be veterinary care, optical, but ultimately we’re in the relationship business and that takes time, energy, effort to build relationships, sustain relationships.
And I think sometimes with organizations they, lose sight of what is most important and EOS perhaps get involved, the humility is lost. And when I talk about, you know, not necessarily wanting to be a certain size. It’s really making sure that when you grow it’s sustainable growth and you are maintaining that culture and being able to maintain and build, continue to build relationships.
And when those, when you grow at a rate where you are, you lose those connections with each other. It’s internal stakeholders, but also external stakeholders that gets you into a lot of trouble. So, you basically get over your skis from a business perspective. So yes, we have to grow, be able to get economies of scale, be able to provide our team members with the resources and that they need to be successful.
But growing for growing sake never works. It has to be very carefully thought out and done in a manner that doesn’t compromise your existing business or the relationships or the culture.
Jordan Finger: Yeah. I think that’s greatly said, and I think that does go a long way. I think for new grads, people who are, are aspiring to open their own clinics.
A few of my friends from grad school and roommate from back home in college and two of ’em are, are emotions going and the steps they’re taking and soon to open their, their first clinic and, you know, they’re hungry and they’re anxious to get it going and. I think that’s great advice that you gave, and I’ve been trying to share with them some of the knowledge I’ve been learning in my role as the clinic director and giving them some advice on just the various of things.
But you know, with, again, the reimbursement rates and just cost of everything, you know, people are very eager to, okay, we’re gonna get this up and going and, and soon we’re gonna get another one. And just keep multiplying. And like you said, if you’re not taking the right steps or planning accordingly along that process, you know, it could end up hurting you in the long run.
Richard Leaver: Yeah, I, you know, I have a MBA from university in [00:35:00] Michigan. You know, I’m, I’m, I don’t necessarily consider myself the cleverest guy in the room. In fact, you don’t want to be the cleverest guy in the room. You wanna surround yourself with people that are clever than yourself. But if it was easy to open practices on your own, then with an MBA, I would’ve done it.
Okay. That’s the bottom line. But, you know, schools do have, do not prepare you one bit for the business side sufficiently. They don’t adequately explain the fact that the credentialing requirements, the, you know, HR laws, the, you know, legal regulatory frameworks based off state, federal, and local law regulations and laws, you know, taxation, et cetera, et cetera.
So. Hats off to everyone that wants to set up a practice. But if they want to do it based off trying to get a lifestyle, they’re probably better off choosing a slightly different, different path. Perhaps you might be able to earn a little bit more money perhaps, but you’re certainly going to be working really hard for that money.
Jordan Finger: Yeah. And you mentioned your MBA and so I was going to touch upon that and I guess I’ll kind of leave you with this question. So, was being in, in, you know, a high leadership role of A CEO, always part of your, your goals when you’re a new clinician or even younger than that?
Richard Leaver: No, not at all. Actually, I had no inclination or necessarily be a path or direction to being a CEO originally.
Originally, I did my MBA with the thought that I would actually move out of healthcare, so it was a, a really, a vehicle to move out of healthcare. But I realized as I was completing my MBA that really leadership is leadership. You know, the skills that one needs and knowledge for leadership is transferable across many, you know, entities.
And why would I leave something that I love when I could be just as easily be a leader within the healthcare setting. So I decided consciously to stay within healthcare. And then at that point, having treated full-time for almost 25 years in clinics, I needed to you do something a little bit different, so gravitated more towards the administrative side.
And since doing that, I think I’ve done reasonably well and, and I’ve enjoyed it. And you know, increasingly so to the point where I was invited to apply for first the COO role of what Alliance will at that time as a relatively small organization. Then over the last seven years, you know, together we’ve grown that Alliance organization to, from nothing, literally to an organization that sees well over a million visits a year or almost one and a half million visits a year now. So I’ve kind of evolved and my leadership has evolved as the organization has evolved. So it certainly wasn’t planned out. It’s not to say a lot of people don’t plan their journey, and I think you do have to a certain extent, but, but there’s, there’s always an element of, of luck and also an element of just chance associated with whichever direction one tends to go in life and in careers.
Jordan Finger: Yeah. Well, I don’t want to take up too much of your time ’cause we could talk all day about this stuff, but I do appreciate the opportunity and appreciate you coming on and kind of switching roles for a little bit.
And letting us kind of learn more about you and your mindset and where it all started.
Richard Leaver: I, I loved the time. So thank you so much, Jordan, for, for being the host today. I’ve really enjoyed it. I’m usually the one that gets to quiz other people, so it’s very strange to be in the, in the opposite seat.
So I’m really, really grateful for your time as well, so thank you.
Jordan Finger: Yes, sir. Thank you, and I look forward to seeing you again soon.
Alliance Physical Therapy Partners: This podcast was brought to you by Alliance Physical Therapy Partners. Want more expertise and information? Visit our website at allianceptp.com and follow us on social media.
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